September 30, 2002

Tidbits
Ar-pharazon

To Radagast da foo' ref 9-20 post: You need to be very careful when you quote works from the HOME series. As I'm sure you know, the tales are the many different iteriations Tolkien went through in creating Middle Earth. Only The Hobbit, LOTR, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales should be considered complete, ie the Middle Earth gospel. Many will argue (with a good case) that even The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales are not reliable source documents. The Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales II is not the final version C. Tolkien uses in the Silmarillion. There is no Legolas Greenleaf from Gondolin in the Silmarillion. However, if you were to dig deeper into the Book of Lost Tales II, you will read (depedning what publication you have, but on p 217 of my version) that the Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin still lives in Tol Eressea. So, even in this case, this Legolas and Legolas of LOTR are two different elves. By the way, the sack of Gondolin occured about 6500 years before ROTK.

So how old is Legolas? Thranduil was a Sindarin Elf who relocated from Lindon to Greenwood around SA 1000. Since Legolas does not mention Lindon (nor does he have the sea longing until he comes to Pelargir in ROTK), we can assume he was born after SA 1000. This could still put him at the ripe old age of 5400 yrs at the time of LOTR. However, I believe I read something which gave me the impression he was born in the third age...help with this one. On a side note, here's a quote (post LOTR) by Tolkien found in Book of Lost Tales II (p 327) concerning Legolas I found interesting, "He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of the Fellowship."

To Arina ref 9-19 post: Please tell me your reference for Arwen as the last to be born of the elves. I think I remember reading that somehwere, but can't place it (other than being called Evenstar). Remember, there are thousands of other elves in Middle Earth that are never mentioned in LOTR.

On Boromir: there is no doubt that Boromir was very brave, valiant, and an outstanding leader - I very much liked his portrayal in the movie. However, he was not as wise as Faramir, nor had the sense of premonition that Numenoreans often had (as did Faramir). This (along with his pride) was his undoing. Boromir was a great soldier and general; he would not have made a good king (at least by Dunedain standards). However, those who fault Boromir for succumbing to the Ring should not cast stones. Even Galadriel took many thousands of years to get over her power craving. Gandalf wouldn't touch the Ring.

On the elves not fighting during ROTK: Uh, excuse me....If you have been fighting Morgoth/Sauron for 10,000 years, at some point you going to get pooped out. I suggest you read the Silmarillion to get a taste of the true proportions of the battles of Middle Earth - battles in LOTR are mere skirmishes in comparison.
Can you imagine the mental, spiritual, and physical drain of constantly fighting for 5-10K years. Men are only around for a few hundred years (at most). They can be naive, bold, and daring (ie Aragorn and Boromir with the Balrog) because they just don't know, then they are gone to be replaced by new men, etc, etc. Also, the Elves were beginning to fade/diminish. I'm sure this sapped alot of their strength and willpower to fight. They were leaving Middle Earth because they were spiritually and physically drained. I beleive the three rings were the only things keeping them going. Remember, death is a gift of Illuvatar to Men.

To Quirk: It took me several months to get over the short fallings of the movie. I was miffed mostly by the portrayal of Aragorn as afraid of and running from his heritage. Also, Elrond's attitude towards men ("Men are weak"). At least we have the books to fall back onto.

Minor technicality: Someone mentioned the Numenoreans began to worship Sauron. Don't go giving Annatar a big ego trip. They actually built a temple to Melkor, to whom Sauron is just a little slave boy.

To Danny ref 9-20: Sauron may have known Galadriel had a ring, but I think that was secondary to his just hating/fearing her ("Now in his heart Melkor most hated the Eldar..." the Silmarillion p 66. This was Melkor not Sauron, but you get the drift). Galadriel was the most powerful of the elves remaining in Middle Earth (and second only to Feanor of all the Noldor - UT p 229). The Noldor and Morgoth/Sauron feud goes way back. Mano y Mano, I think Sauron fears/hates Galadriel more than anyone (even Gandalf)...that is until Sauron knows of Aragorn's existence. It was more than her ring that gave Galadriel power. She is a Noldo, she has been to Aman, she is tough and not to be triffled with - ring or no ring.

That brings me to a thought on Arwen and the scene in the movie at the Ford of Bruinen. It was unusuall for elvish women to fight. However, Tolkien was very explicit about their strength. "There are few who can withstand the Nine.." I believe Arwen (daughter of Elrond, granddaughter of Galadriel, descedant of Luthien and Melian) was one who could withstand the Nine. Of course, this just means she could put up a good fight - I doubt she or anyone would win 1 v 9. So, I believe the scene at the Ford was realistic. The line, "If you want him, come and claim him" was a bit over the top.

To Annatar: Yep, we Men of Numenor were tall, bad ass dudes. You were right (for once) to turn tail and hide.

Hope everyone hung around this long.