October 8, 2002

Tolkien, Allegory, Christians, Jews, IDs, etc.
Quirk

Like so many others, I have attempted to remain silent regarding the Tolkien/Christianity debate. (I did post on this topic once a few months ago, maybe twice, but I was asking questions, I think, more than giving opinions.) Anyway I intend now to make a few comments. For those who hate this thread, please read no further.

>But there is one thing in common with Lord of >the Rings and ALL religons (hint: emphasis on >the all, it's not just Christianity that shares >a relationship, Jews and Muslims believe this >too) is that there is one superior being, hint: >God.

There are more religions than Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and many of them do not believe that "there is one superior being." Examples? Buddhism, LDS (Mormons), Hinduism, etc. So it is false to say that the one thing in common with LOTR and *all* religions is the belief in one superior being. Also, though I know so many Muslims claim a belief in only one God, you'd be surprised at the origin of their religion. Read The Satanic Verses, if you will, and remember that there was not a price on Rushdie's head for no reason. (You might even find it hard to believe that Catholicism is monotheistic, what with it's beliefs concerning the saints and Mary. Not just believing what "the first person told me" -- I've studied all of this for years, I was Catholic, etc. Try another argument.)

>And plus, I thought this was a Tolkien based >website. I wasn't aware that religious talks >happened on Tolkien websites.

And Tolkien was a Catholic, and a fairly religious man...so religion is fair game. Also, as it is hard to deny a spiritual element to his work, how could one discuss his work and neglect to discuss this element? On the other hand, it seems Tolkien made it clear that LOTR is *NOT* religious allegory. As so many have pointed out, it also is clear that his religious beliefs, as well as the various pagan/non-christian religions with which he was familiar, influenced his work.

I think that the religious discussion can continue, but it would be better if modified from discussing his work in terms of allegory "Gandalf = Jesus," and rather in terms of how certain religions may have influenced his work -- how ideas crept in to the various characters and concepts, but without being allegorical. The problem is, most of us (myself included) probably don't know much about these various religions. Yes, there are some exceptions here, I've read your posts. I'm guessing that most here know about either Christianity or Judaism, but very little about any other religion. (I don't count those who have smoked a little pot and listened to reggae music as knowing about various ancient and modern religions, sorry.) I would, however, find it interesting if those familiar with the various ancient religions (which seem to have most influenced Tolkien's work) would post the things they've noticed--personalities as well as concepts.

>I am a member of one of those "false religions." >I am a regular poster on this forum, and visit >it daily.

Believe me, I'd prefer that people not spend any time here preaching about this or that religion. Religious/spiritual discussion simply cannot be avoided when talking Tolkien--he was a religious man and it shows up frequently in his work. But this just isn't the proper forum for preaching. Tolkien's work and religious ideas can fairly be discussed here, but forcing allegory onto his work when he plainly stated that it does not exist, and using this board to put forth one's own religious beliefs, is a bit of an abuse, I think, of this format. We are here to discuss Tolkien's work, not or own beliefs.

>I am what you call a Mormon by the nickname, but >the true name of our Church is the Church of >Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Don't be so easily offended. "Christian Hobbit" didn't even strike me as being particularly intelligent. For some reason he (or she) feels the need to state his religious views when they are largely unwanted. Again, I wish this could be avoided. But lets also not be so thin-skinned. Who cares if someone takes a jab or two? Jab back, but don't cry.

>Both sides just leave convinced that they are >right because scripture like all writing is easy >to interpet in many different ways.

What an utterly messy statement this is. You admit to following a book which you think is easily interpreted in many different ways? Wow. Doesn't sound very stable to me. If I felt this way about a book with which I wanted to live my entire life by (now and in eternity), I'd sure feel a bit unsure.

>And besides that, this is not a place for >religious debate.

Agreed.

>My point is that Christian Hobbit should try and >excercise a bit more Christian tolerance and >understanding.

No place for religious debate, yet your are debating religion. :)

>I if you knew the truth about the Mormon Church >you could not honestly call it a cult.

There are plenty of well-informed people that call LDS a cult. A cult simply means, "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious." So anyone holding to evangelical Christianity is indeed going to insist that LDS is a cult. Doesn't mean they are right, but given their beliefs, LDS is by definition a cult. It may not be a cult in the Jim Jones or Heaven's Gate sense, but by regular definition of the word it is indeed. (I am a Christian, and there are several people that call my church a cult. Of course they really do know nothing about it, it's not a big church, all they know is what they've heard from a few antagnostic sources, so I feel your pain. But plenty of people have done plenty of research and study of LDS and as defined above, there can be no doubt that in relation to evang. christianity, and historical christianity, it is indeed a cult, as defined above.)

>Have you ever had a sincere conversation with a >Mormon? I mean a talk where you are interested >not in arguing, but in understanding their >beleifs.

Yes, I have. I sat and listened to them, asked questions, attempted to understand. These nice boys (they really were nice and friendly people) said they had several hours to talk. However, then I began to ask them questions. When they could not answer, suddenly they had to leave. That was my experience, and I've seen it happen to others as well. They were nice and friendly, so was I. But they couldn't answer my questions, and this was apparently the cause of their change from "we have hours to talk," to "we have to go now." (I'm sure you can tell similar stories where some Christian couldn't answer your questions, I'm just talking about my experience.)

>...Christian Hobbit is expressing his belief in >a way consistent with the teachings of Christ, >in as much as he [Jesus]states quite >categorically that "I am the way, the truth, and >the li[fe]. No one comes to the Father except by >me." There really is little room for compromise >in this statement.

Agreed.

>On the other hand, Christian Hobbit, I think if >you check out some of the works of C.S. Lewis, >especially 'The Last Battle'...

I would recommend not reading Lewis for theological purposes. I don't just say this because I disagree with so much of what he says (he used to be my favorite author, both in his fiction and in his "theological" works). I say this because if one is going to gather views about the Bible, then just read the Bible. Listening to what Lewis, Graham, Spurgeon, etc. have to say is what gets people into trouble. Read the Bible and judge these men by it, don't read these men and then judge the Bible by them.

Well, I think I'm a bit guilty of a bit of religious debate after stating that there ought not to be any on this board. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I seriously doubt that this will be posted. If it is, I think the moderator in advance. If it is not, well, I think I can see why it won't be.

quirk