February 5, 2004

Orcses
Tarthalion

Are the Orcs really immortal like elves? I doubt it. Although the Valaquenta insinuates that the race came from Quendi corrupted by Morgoth, it is hardly conceivable that the first Dark Lord would be either willing or able to maintain in his corrupt version of the Eldar what was essentially the peculiar gift of Iluvatar to Elven kind, namely immortality.

Look at the exact wording of the Silmarillion: the prisoners of Melkor "were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the orcs had life and multiplied after the fashion of the children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion... And deep in their hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served with fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar."

The Quendi captured by Melkor were enslaved and corrupted. THEN Melkor BRED the orcs as a result of their corruption. It is quite possible that what is meant here is that he forced the elves to breed with other life forms he had already perverted. Perhaps Tolkien was thinking of a parallel with Genesis 6 that speaks of the sons of God going in to the daughters of men, the traditional interpretation of which (right or wrong) is that fallen angels co-habited with women in defiance of God.

Also, note that it says they were bred "in envy and mockery of the elves." What was it that Melkor envied in Eru's creation that he could not replicate in his own if not immortality?

Furthermore, the evidence from later ages presented so far in this forum is only for the probably LONGEVITY of (selected) orcs such as Gorbag and Shagrat. Other mortal races are also long lived, as well as some animals and birds, but this does not necessarily imply immortality. Also, in contrast to the Elves, who have children very infrequently, the orcs seem to breed like flies.

The end result of Melkor's corruption of the Quendi was MORE than the original captives, since all the stories from various ages mention myriads of orcs who breed and multiply like maggots. They "multiplied after the fashion of the Children of Iluvatar" (men and elves) means simply they bred and produced children. If the original elvish captives were not just the progenitors of orcs, but were themselves transformed into immortal orcs and lived for ages thereafter, you would think they would be named as great and immortal orcish warriors in the battles they took part in.

The whole argument may be redundant anyway, since it is highly unlikely, given the orcish penchant for killing their own, that they would remain immortal for long, even if they started out that way!